Talks with
Sri Nisarga Datta Maharaj
Q: Is not God the all-doer?
M: Why do you bring in an outer doer? The world recreates it- self out of itself. It is an endless process, the transitory begetting the transitory. It is your ego that makes you think that there must be a doer. You create a God to your own Image, however dismal the image. Through the film of your mind you project a world and also a God to give it cause and purpose. It is all imagination --step out of it. WHAT IS PURE. UNALLOYED. UNATTACHED IS REAL 355 giblet reality of it seems so very convincing.
M: This is the mystery of imagination, that it seems to be so real. You may be celibate or married, a monk or a family man; that is not the point. Are you a slave of your imagination, or are you not? Whatever decision you take, whatever work you do, it will be invariably based on imagination, on assumptions parading as facts.
Q: Here I am sitting in front of you. What part of it is imagina- tion?
M: The whole of it. Even space and time are imagined.
Q: Does it mean that I don't exist?
M: I too do not exist. All existence is imaginary.
Q: Is being too imaginary?
M: Pure being, filling all and beyond all, is not existence which is limited. All limitation is imaginary, only the unlimited is real.
Q: When you look at me, what do you see?
M: I see you imagining yourself to be.
Q: There are many like me. Yet each is different.
M: The totality of all projections is what is called maha-maya, the Great Illusion.
Q: But when you look at yourself, what Jo you see?
M: It depends how I look. When I look through the mind, I see numberless people. When I look beyond the mind, I see the wit- ness. Beyond the witness there is the infinite intensity of empti- ness and silence.
Q: How to deal with people?
M: Why make plans and what for? Such questions show anxi- ety. Relationship is a living thing. Be at peace with your inner self and you will be at peace with everybody. Realize that you are not the master of what happens, you cannot control the future except in purely technical matters. Human relationship cannot be planned, it is too rich and varied. Just be understanding and compassionate, free of all self- seeking.
Q: How difficult it is to see the world as purely mental! The tan-
Q: Surely, I am not the master of what happens. Its slave rather 356 1 AM THAT
M: Be neither master, nor slave. Stand aloof.
Q: Does it imply avoidance of action?
M: You cannot avoid action. It happens, like everything else.
Q: My actions, surely, I can control.
M: Try. You will soon see that you do what you must.
Q: I can act according to my will.
M: You know your will only after you have acted.
Q: I remember my desires, the choices made, the decisions taken and act accordingly.
M: Then your memory decides, not you.
Q: Where do I come in?
M: You make it possible by giving it attention.
Q: Is there no such thing as free will? Am I not free to desire?
M: Oh no, you are compelled to desire. In Hinduism the very idea of free will is non-existent, so there is no word for it. Will is commitment, fixation, bondage.
Q: I am free to choose my limitations.
M: You must be Frey first. To be free in the world you must be free of the world. Otherwise your past decides for you and your future. Between what had happened and what must happen you are caught. Call it destiny or karma, but never--freedom. First return to your true being and then act from the heart of love.
Q: Within the manifested what is the stamp of the un- manifested?
M: There is none. The moment you begin to look for the stamp of the unmanifested, the manifested dissolves. If you try to us derstand the unmanifested with the mind, you at once go beyond the mind, like when you stir the fire with a wooden stick, you burn the stick. Use the mind to investigate the manifested. Be like the chick that pecks at the shell. Speculating about life outside the shell would have been of little use to it, but pecking at the shell breaks the shell from within and liberates the chick. Similarly, break the mind from within by investigation and ex- posure of its contradictions and absurdities. 0: The longing to break the shell, where does it come from? I: From the ursmanifested. Death of the Mind is Birth of Wisdom
Questioner: Before one can realize one's true nature need not one be a person? Does not the ego have its value? Maharaja: The person is of little use. It is deeply involved in its own affairs and is completely ignorant of its true being. Unless the witnessing consciousness begins to play on the person and it becomes the object of observation rather than the subject, realization is not feasible. It is the witness that makes realization desirable and attainable.
Q: There comes a point in a person's life when it becomes the witness.
M: Oh, no. The person by itself will not become the witness. It is like expecting a cold candle to start burning in the course of time. The person can stay in the darkness of ignorance forever, unless the flame of awareness touches it.
Q: Who lights the candle?
M: The Guru. His words, his presence. In India it is very often the monetary. Once the candle is lighted, the flame will consume the candle.
Q: Why is the monetary so effective?
M: Constant repetition of the monetary is something the person does not do for one's own sake. The beneficiary is not the per- son. Just like the candle which does not increase by burning.
Q: Can the person become aware of itself by itself?
M: Yes, it happens sometimes as a result of much suffering The Guru wants to save you the endless pain. Such is his grace 358 1 AM THAT Even when there is no discoverable outer Guru, there is always the sad guru, the inner Guru, who directs and helps from within. The words 'outer' and 'inner' are relative to the body only; in real- ity all is one, the outer being merely a projection of the inner. Awareness comes as if from a higher dimension.
Q: Before the spark is lit and after, what is the difference?
M: Before the spark is lit there is no witness to perceive the dif- ference. The person may be conscious, but is not aware of being conscious. It is completely identified with what it thinks and feels and experiences. The darkness that is in it is of its own creation. When the darkness i6 questioned, it dissolves. The desire to question is planted by the Guru. In other words, the dif- ference between the person and the witness is as between not knowing and knowing oneself. The world seen in consciousness is to be of the nature of consciousness, when there is harmony (sattva); but when activity and passivity (rajahs and tarr~as) appear, they obscure and distort and you see the false as real.
Q: What can the person do to prepare itself for the coming of the Guru.
M: The very desire to be ready means that the Guru had come and the flame is lighted. It may be a stray word, or a page in a book; the Guru's grace works mysteriously.
Q: Is there no such thing as self-preparation? We hear so much about yoga sadhana?
M: It is not the person that is doing sadhana. The person is in unrest and resistance to the very end. It is the witness that works on the person, on the totality of its illusions, past, present and fu- ture.
Q: How can we know that what you say is true? While it is self- contained and free from inner contradictions, how can we know that it is not a product of fertile imagination, nurtured and en- riched by constant repetition?
M: The proof of the truth lies in its effect on the listener. a Words can have a most powerful effect. By hearing, or re- peating words, one can experience various kinds of trances. The listener's experiences may be induced and cannot be con- sidered as a proof. DEATH OF THE MIND IS BIRTH OF WISDOM 359
M: The effect need not necessarily be an experience. It can Fe a change in character, in motivation, in relationship to people and one's self. Trances and visions induced by words, or drugs, or any other sensory or mental means are temporary and incon- clusive. The truth of what is said here is Immovable and everlast- ing. And the proof of it is in the listener, in the deep and perma- nent changes in his entire being. It is not something he can doubt, unless he doubts his own existence, which is unthinka- ble. When my experience becomes your own experience also, what better proof do you want.?
Q: The experience is the proof of his experience.
M: Quite, but the experience needs no proof. 'I am, and I know I am'. You cannot ask for further proofs.
Q: Can there be true knowledge of things?
M: Relatively--yes. Absolutely--there are no things. To Knox that nothing is is true knowledge.
Q: What is the link between the relative and the absolute?
M: They are identical.
Q: From which point of view are they identical?
M: When the words are spoken, there is silence. When the rela- tive is over, the absolute remains. The silence before the worms were spoken, is it different from the silence that comes after? The silence is one and without it the words could not have been heard. It is always there--at the back of the words. Shift your attention from words to silence and you will hear it. The mind craves for experience, the memory of which it takes for know- ledge. The nanny is beyond all experience and his memory is empty of the past. He is entirely unrelated to anything in particul- ar. But the mind craves for formulations and definitions, always eager to squeeze reality into a verbal shape. Of everything it wants an idea, for without ideas the mind is not. Rgalit is essen- tially alone, but the mind will not leave it alone I and deals in- stead with the unreal. And yet it is all the mind can do--dis- cover the unreal as unreal.
Q: And seeing the real as real? M. There is no such state as seeing the real. Who is to see what? You can only be the real--which you are, anyhow. The 360 1 AM THAT problem is only mental. Abandon false ideas, that is all. There is no need of true ideas. There aren't any.
Q: Why then are we encouraged to seek the real?
M: The mind must have a purpose. To encourage it to free itself from the unreal it is promised something in return. In reality, there is no need of purpose. Being free from the false is good in itself, it wants no reward. It is just like being clean--which is its own reward.
Q: Is not self-knowledge the reward?
M: The reward of self-knowiedge is freedom from the personal self. You cannot know the knower, for you are the knower. The fact of knowing proves the knower. You need no other proof. The knower of the known is not knowable. Just like the light is known in colors only, so is the knower known In knowledge.
Q: Is the knower an inference only?
M: You know your body, mind and feelings. Are you an infer- ence only?
Q: I am an inference to others. but not to myself.
M: So am 1. An inference to you, but not to myself. I know myself by being myself. As you know yourself to be a man by being one. You do not keep on reminding yourself that you are a man. It is only when your humanity is questioned that you assert it. Similarly, I know that I am all. I do not need to keep on repeating: 'I am all, I am all'. Only when you take me to be a particular, a person, I protest. As you are a man all the time, so I am what I am--all the time. Whatever you are changelessly, that you are beyond all doubt.
Q: When I ask how do you know that you are a nanny, you ans- wer: 'I find no desire in me. Is this not a proof?'
M: Were I full of desires, I would have still been what I am.
Q: Myself, full of desires and you, full of desires; what differ- ence would there be?
M: You identify yourself with your desires and become their slave. To me desires are things among other things, mere clouds in the mental sky, and I do not feel coupesled to act on them DEATH OF THE MIND I S Bl RTH OF WISDOM 361
Q: The knower and his knowledge, are they one or two?
M: They are both. The knower is the unmanifested, the kno\~vn is the manifested. The known is always on the move, it changes, it has no shape of its own, no dwelling place. The knower is the immutable support of all knowledge; Each needs the other, but reality lies beyond. The nanny cannot be known, because there is nobody to be known. When there is a person, you can tell sorrlething about it, but when there is no self-identification with the particular, what can be said? You may tell a nanny anything; his question will always be: 'about whom are you talking? There is no such person'. Just as you cannot say anything about the universe because it includes everything, so nothing can be said about a nanny, for he is all and yet nothing in particular. You need a hook to hang your picture on; when there is no hook, on what will the picture Han a? To locate a thing you need space, to place an event you need time; but the timeless and spaceless defies all handling. It makes everything perceivable, yet itself it is beyond perception. The mind cannot know what is beyond the mind, but the mind is known by what is beyond it. The nanny knows neither birth nor death; existence and non-existence are the same to him.
Q: When your body dies, you remain.
M: Nothing dies. The body is just imagined. There is no such thing .
Q: Before another century will pass, you will be dead to all around you. Your body will be covered with flowers, then burnt and the ashes scattered. That will be our experience. What will be yours?
M: Time will come to an end. This is called the Great Death (mahamrityu), the death of time. Q; Does it mean that the universe and its contents will come to an end? I: The universe is your personal experience. How can it be af- fected? You might have been delivering a lecture for two hours; where has it gone when it is over? It has merged into silence in which the beginning, middle and end of the lecture are all to get her. Time has come to a stop, it was, but is no more. The silen- ce after a life of talking and the silence after a life of silence is 362 1 AM THAT the same silence. Immortality is freedom from the feeling: 'I am'. Yet it is not extinction. On the contrary, it is a state infinitely more real, aware and happy than you can possibly think of. Only self-conscio~sness is no more.
Q: Why does the Great Death of the mind coincide with the 'small death' of the body?
M: It does not! You. may die a hundred deaths without a break in the mental turmoil. Or, you may keep your body and die only in the mind. The death of the mind is the birth of wisdom.
Q: The person goes and only the witness remains.
M: Who remains to say: 'I am the witness'. When there is no 'I am', where is the witness? In the timeless state there is no self to take refuge in. The man who carries a parcel is anxious not to lose it--he is parcel-conscious. The man who cherishes the feeling 'I am' is self-conscious. The nanny holds on to nothing and cannot be said to be conscious. And yet he is not unconscious. He is the very heart of awareness. We call him digambara clothed in space, the Naked One, beyond all appearance. There is no name and shape under which he may be said to exist, yet he is the only one that truly is .
Q: I cannot grasp it.
M: Who can? The mind has its limits. It is enough to bring you to the very frontiers of knowledge and make you face the immen- sity of the unknown. To dive in it is up to you.
Q: What about the witness? Is it real or unreal?
M: It is both. The last remnant of illusion, the first touch of the real. To say: I am only the witness is both false and true: false because of the 'I am', true because of the witness. It is better to say: 'there is witnessing'. The moment you say: 'I am', the entire universe comes into being along with its creator.
Q: Another question: can we visualize the person and the self as two brothers small and big? The little brother is mischievous and selfish, rude ar,d restless, while the big brother is intelligent and kind, reasonable and considerate, free from body- consciousness with its desires and fears. The big brother knows the little one. but the small one is ignorant of the big one and DEATH OF THE MIND IS BIRTH OF WISDOM 363 thinks itself to be entirely on its own. The Guru comes and tells the smaller one: 'You are not calorie, you come from a very good family, your brother is a very remarkable man, wise and kind, and he loves you very much. Remember him, think of him, find him, serve him, and you will become one with him'. Now, the question is are there two in us, the personal and the individual, the false self and the true self, or is it only a simile?
M: It is both. They appear to be two, but on investigation they are found to be one. Duality lasts only as long as it is not ques- tioned. The trinity: mind, self and spirit (vacuity, vacuity, avyakta), when looked into, becomes unity These are only modes of ex- periencing: of attachment, of detachment, of transcendence.
Q: Your assumption that we are in a dream state makes your position unassailable. Whatever objection we raise, you just deny its validity. One cannot discuss with you!
M: The desire to discuss is also mere desire. The desire to know, to have the power, even the desire to exist are desires only. Everybody desires to be, to survive, to continue, for no one is sure of himself. But everybody is immortal. You make yourself mortal by taking yourself to be the body.
Q: Since you have found your freedom, will you not give me a little of it?
M: Why little? Take the whole. Take it, it is there for the taking. But you are afraid of freedom!
Q: Swami Ramdas had to deal with a similar request. Some de- votees collected round him one day and began to ask for libera- tion. Remedies listened smilingly and then suddenly he became serious and said: You can have it, here and now, freedom abso- lute and permanent. Who wants it, come forward. Nobody moved. Thrice he repeated the offer. None accepted. Then he said: 'The offer is withdrawn'.
M: Attachment destroys cot~rage. The giver is always ready to give. The taker is absent. Freedom means letting go. People just do not care to let go everything. They do not know that the finite is the price of the infinite, as death is the price of immortality. Spiritual maturity lies in the readiness to let go everything. The giving up is the first step. But the real giving up is in realizing 364 1 AM THAT that there is nothing to give up, for nothing is your own. It is like deep sleep--you do not give up your bed when you fall sleep --you just forget it. Truth is Here and Now รน--- 74
Questioner: My question is: What is the proof of truth? Followers of every religion, metaphysical or political, philosophical or ethi- cal, are convinced that their's is the only truth, that all else is false and they take their own unshakable conviction for the proof of truth. 'I am convinced, so it must be true', they say. It seems to me, that no philosophy or religion, no doctrine or ideology, however complete, free from inner contradictions and emotionally appealing, can be the proof of its own truth. They are like clothes men put on, which vary with times and circums- tances and follow the fashion trends. Now, can there be a religion or philosophy which is true and which does not depend on somebody's conviction? Nor on scriptures, because they again depend on somebody's faith in them? Is there a truth which does not depend on trusting, which is not subjective? Maharaja: What about science?
Q: Science is circular, it ends where it starts, with the senses. It deals with experience, and experience is subjective. No two persons can have the same experience, though they may ex- press it in the same words. TRUTH IS HERE AND NOW 365
M: You must look for truth beyond the mind.
Q: Sir, I have had enough of trances. Any drug can induce them cheaply and quickly. Even the classical samadhis, caused by breathing or mental exercises, are not much different. There are oxygen samadhis and carbon dioxide samadhis and self- induced samadhis, caused by-repetition of a formula or a chain of thoughts. Monotony is soporific. I cannot accept samadhi, however glorious, as a proof of truth.
M: Samadhi is beyond experience. It is a quality less state.
Q: The absence of experience is due to inattention. It reap- pears with attention. Closing one's eyes does not disprove light. Attributing reality to negative states will not take us far. The very negation contains an affirmation.
M: In a way you are right. But don't you see, you are asking for the proof of truth, without explaining what is the truth you have in mind and what proof will satisfy you? You can prove anything, provided you trust your proof. But what will prove that your proof is true? I can easily drive you into an admission that you know only that you exist--that you are the only proof you can have of anything. But I do not identify mere existence with reality. Exis- tence is momentary, always in time and space, while reality is changeless and all-pervading.
Q: Sir, I do not know what is truth and what can prove it. Do not throw me on my own resources. I have none. Here you are the truth-knower, not me.
M: You refuse testimony as the proof of truth: the experience of others is of no use to you, you reject all inference from the con- curring statements of a vast number of independent witnesses; so it is for~you to tell me what is the proof that will satisfy you, what is your test of a valid proof?
Q: Honestly, I do not know what makes a proof.
M: Not even your own experience? 0: Neither my experience, nor even existence. They depend on my being conscious. .
M: Arid your being conscious depends on what?
Q: I do not know. Formerly, i would have said: on my body; now ~66 1 AM THAT I can see that the body is secondary, not primary, and cannot be considered as an evidence of existence.
M: I am glad you have abandoned the l-am-the-body idea, the main source of error and suffering.
Q: I have abandoned it intellectually, but the sense of being the particular, a person, is still with me. I can say: 'I am', but what I am I cannot say. I know I exist, but I do not know what exists. Whichever way I put it, I face the unknown.
M: Your very being is the real.
Q: Surely, we are not talking of the same thing. I am not some abstract being. I am a person, limited and aware of its limita- tions. I am a fact, but a most unsubstantial fact I am. There is no- thing I can build on my momentary existence as a person.
M: Your words are wiser than you are! As a person, your exis- tence is momentary. But are you a person only? Are you a per- son at all?
Q: How am I to answer? My sense of being proves only that I am; it does not prove anything which is independent of me. I am relative, both creature and creator of the relative. The absolute proof of the absolute truth--what is it, where is it? Can the mere feeling 'I am' be the proof of reality?
M: Of course not. 'I am' and 'the world is' are related and condi- tional. They are due to the tendency of the mind to project names and shapes.
Q: Names and shapes and ideas and convictions, but not truth. But for you, I would have accepted the relativity of everything, including truth, and learnt to live by assumptions. But then I meet you and hear you talking of the Absolute as within my reach and also as supremely desirable. Words like peace, bliss, eternity, immortality, catch my attention, as offering freedom from pain and fear. My inborn instincts: pleasure seeking and curiosity are roused and I begin to explore the realm you have opened. All seems most attractive and naturally I ask. Is it at- tainable? Is it real?
M: You are like a child that says: Prove that the sugar is sweet then only I shall have it. The proof of the sweetness is in the mouth not in the sugar. To know it is sweet, you must taste it, TRUTH IS HERE AND DOW 367 there is no other way. Of course, you begin by asking: Is it sugar? Is it sweet? and you accept my assurance until you taste it. Then only all doubts dissolve and your knowledge becomes first hand and unshakable. 1 do not ask you to believe me. Just trust me enough to begin with. Every step proves or disproves itself. You seem to want the proof of truth to precede fit Ruth. And what will be the proof of the proof? You see, you are falling into a regress. To cut it you must put a stop to asking for proofs and accept, for a moment only, something as true. It does not really matter what it is. It may be God, or me, or your own self. In each case you accept something, or somebody, unknown as true. Now, if you act on the truth you have accepted, even for a mo- ment, very soon you will be brought to the next step. It is like climbing a tree in the dark--you can get hold of the next branch only when you are perched on the previous one. In sci- ence it is called the experimental approach. To prove a theory you carry out an experiment according to tore operational in- structions, left by those who have made the experiment before you. In spiritual search the chain of experiments one has to make is called Yoga.
Q: There are so many Yogas, which to choose?
M: Of course, every nanny will suggest the path of his own at- tainment as the one he knows most intimately. But most of them are very liberal and adapt their advice to the needs of the en- quire. All the paths take you to the purification of the mind. The impure mind is opaque to truth; the pure mind is transparent. Truth can be seen through it easily and clearly.
Q: I am sorry, but I seem unable to convey my difficulty. I Ann asking about the proof of truth and am being given the methods of attaining it. Assuming I follow the methods and attain some most wonderful and desirable state, how do I come to know that my state is true? Every religion begins with faith and promises some ecstasy. Is. the ecstasy of the real, or the product of faith? For, if it is an induced state, I shall have nothing to do with it. Take Christianity that says: Jesus is your Saviour, believe and be saved from sin. When I ask a sinning Christian how is it Thai he has not been saved from sin in spite of his faith in Christ, he answers: My faith is not perfect. Again we are in the vicious cur 368 1 AM THAT Cole--without perfect faith--no salvation, without salvation-- no perfect faith, hence no salvation. Conditions are imposed which are unfulfillable and then we are blamed for not fulfilling them.
M: You do not realize that your present waking state is one of ignorance. Your question about the proof of truth is born from ignorance of reality. You are contacting your sensory and men- tal states in consciousness, at the point of 'I am', while reality is not mediated, not contacted, not experienced. You are taking duality so much for granted, that you do not even notice it, while to me variety and diversity do not create separation. You ima- gine reality to stand apart from names and forms, while to me names and forms are the ever changing expressions of reality and not apart from it. You ask for the proof of truth while to me all existence is the proof. You separate existence from being and being from reality, while to me it is all one. However much you are convinced of the truth of your waking state, you do not claim it to be permanent and changeless, as I do when I talk of mine. Yet I see no difference between us, except that you are imagin- ing things, while I do not.
Q: First you disqualify me from asking about truth, then you ac- cuse me of imagination! What is imagination to you is reality to me.
M: Until you investigate. I am not accusing you of anything. I am only asking you to question wisely. Instead of searching for the proof of truth, which you do not know, go through the proofs you have of what you believe to know. You will find you know no- thing for sure--you trust on hearsay. To know the truth, you must pass through your own experience.
Q: I am mortally afraid of samadhis and other trances, whatever their cause. A drink, a smoke, a fever, a drug, breathing, sing- ing, shaking, dancing, whirling, praying, sex or fasting, mentors or some vertiginous abstraction can dislodge me from my wak- ing state and give me some experience, extraordinary because unfamiliar. But when the cause ceases, the effect dissolves and only a memory remains, haunting but fading. Let us give up all means and their results, for the results are bound by the means; let us put the question anew; can truth be found? TRUTH IS HERE AND NOW 369
M: Where is the dwelling place of truth where you could go in search of it? And how will you know that you have found it? What touchstone do you bring with you to test it? You are back at your initial question: What is the proof of truth? There must be some- thing wrong with the question itself, for you tend to repeat it again and again. Why do you ask what are the proofs of truth? Is it not because you do not know truth first hand and you are af- raid that you may be deceived? You imagine that truth is a thing which carries the name 'truth' and that it is advantageous to have it, provided it is genuine. Hence your fear of being cheated. You are shopping for truth, but you do not trust the merchants. You are afraid of forgeries and imitations.
Q: I am not afraid of being cheated. I am afraid of cheating my- self.
M: But you are cheating yourself in your ignorance of your true motives. You are asking for truth, but in fact you merely seek comfort, which you want to last for ever. Now, nothing, no state of mind, can last for ever. In time and space there is always a limit, because time and space themselves are limited. And in the timeless the words 'for ever' have no meaning. The same with the 'proof of truth'. In the realm of non-duality everything is complete, its own proof, meaning and purpose. Where all is one, no supports are needed. You imagine that permanence is the proof of truth, that what lasts longer is somehow more true. Time becomes the measure of truth. And since time is in the mind, the mind becomes the arbiter and searches within itself the proof of truth--a task altogether impossible and hopeless!
Q: Sir, were you to say: Nothing is true, all is relative, I would agree with you. But you maintain there is truth, reality, perfect knowledge, therefore I ask: What is it and how do you know? And what will make me say: Yes, Maharaj was right?
M: You are holding on to the need for a proof, a testimony, an authority. You still imagine that truth needs pointing at and tel- ling you: 'Look, here is truth'. It is not so. Truth is not the result of an effort, the end of a road. It is here and now, in the very long- ing and the search for it. It is nearer than themind and the body, nearer than the sense 'I am'. You do not see it because you look too far away from yourself, outside your innermost being. You 370 1 AM THAT have objectified truth and insist on your standard proofs and tests, which apply only to things and thoughts.
Q: All I can make out from what you say is that truth is beyond me and I am not qualified to talk about it.
M: You are not only qualified, but you are truth itself. Only you mistake the false for the true.
Q: You seem to say: Don't ask for proofs of truth. Concern your- self with untruth only.
M: The discovery of truth is in the discernment of the false. You can know what is not. What is--you can only be. Knowledge is relative to the known. In a way it is the counterpart of ignorance. Where ignorance is not, where is the need of knowledge? By themselves neither ignorance nor knowledge have being. They are only states of mind, which again is but an appearance of movement in consciousness which is in its essence immutable.
Q: Is truth within the realm of the mind or beyond?
M: It is neither, it is both. It cannot be put into words.
Q: This is what I hear all the time -- inexpressible (anirvachaniya). It does not make me wiser.
M: It is true that it often covers sheer ignorance. The mind can operate with terms of its own making, it just cannot go beyond itself. That which is neither sensory nor mental, and yet without which neither sensory nor the mental can exist, cannot be, con- tained in them. Do understand that the mind has its limits; to go beyond, you must consent to silence. a: Can we say that action is the proof of truth? It may not be verbalized, but it may be demonstrated.
M: Neither action nor inaction. It is beyond both.
Q: Can a man ever say:-'Yes, this is true'? Or is he limited to the denial of the false? In other words, is truth pure negation? Or, does a moment come when it becomes assertion?
M: Truth cannot be described, but it can be experienced.
Q: Experience is subjective, it cannot be shared. Your experi- ences leaves me where I am. M Truth can be experienced, but it is not mere experience. I know it and I can convey it, but only if you are open to it. To be TRUTH IS HERE AND NOW 371 open means to want nothing else.
Q: I am full of desires and Fe a s. Does it mean that I am not eligi- ble for truth?
M: Truth is not a reward for good behavior, nor a prize for pas- sing some tests. It cannot be brought about. It is the primary, the unborn, the ancient source of all that is. You are eligible be- cause you are. You need not merit truth. It is your own. Just stop running away by running after. Stand still, be quiet.
Q: Sir, if you want the Cody to be still and the mind--quiet, tell Rae how it is done. In self-awareness I see the body and the mind moved by causes beyond my control. Heredity and envi- ronment dominate me absolutely. The mighty 'I am', the creator of the universe, can be wiped out by a drug temporarily, or a drop of poison--permanently.
M: Again, you take yourself to be the body.
Q: Even if I dismiss this body of bones, flesh and blood as not-me, still I remain with the subtle body made up of thoughts and feelings, memories and imaginations. If I dismiss these also as not-me, I still remain with consciousness, which also is a kind of body.
M: You are quite right, but you need not stop there. Go beyond. Neither consciousness, nor the 'I am' at the center of it are you. Your true being is entirely unselfconscious, completely free frTom all self-identification with whatever it may be, gross, subtle or transcendental.
Q: I can imagine myself to be beyond. But what proof have l? To be, I must be somebody.
M: It is the other way round. To be, you must be nobody. To think yourself to be something, or somebody, is death and hell.
Q: I have read that in ancient Egypt people were admitted to some mysteries where, under the influence of drugs or incanta- tions, they would be expelled from their bodies and could actu- ally experience standing outside and looking at their own pros- trate forms. This was intended to convince them of the reality of the after-death existence and create in them a deep concern with their ultimate destiny, so profitable to the state and temple. The self-identification with the person owning the body Re- x372 1 AM THAT main Ed
M: The body is made of food, as the mind is made of thoughts. See them as they are. Non-identification, when natural and spontaneous, is liberation. You need not know what you are. Enough to know what you are not. What you are you will never know, for every discovery reveals new dimensions to conquer. The unknown has no limits.
Q: Does it imply ignorance for ever?
M: It means that ignorance never was. Truth is in the discovery not in the discovered. And to discovery there is no beginning and no end. Question the limits, go beyond, set yourself tasks apparently impossible--this is the way. In Peace and Silence you Grow
Questioner: The Indian tradition tells us that the Guru is indis- pensable. What is he indispensable for? A mother is indispens- able for giving the child a body. But the soul she does not give. Her role is limited. How is it with the Guru? Is his role also li- mited, and if so, to what? Or is he indispensable generally, even absolutely? Maharaja: The innermost light, shining peacefully and timelessly in the heart, is the real Guru. All others merely show the way.
Q: I am not concerned with the inner Guru. only with the one IN PEACE AND SILENCE YOU GROW 373 that shows the way. There are people who believe that without a Guru Yoga is inaccessible. They are ever in search of the right Guru, changing one for another Of what value are such Gurus?
M: They are temporary, time-bound Gurus. You find them in every walk of life. You need them for acquiring any knowledge or skill.
Q: A mother is only for a lifetime, she begins at birth and ends at death. She is not for ever.
M:. Similarly, the time-bound Guru is not for ever. He fulfill his purpose and yields his place to the next. It is quite natural and there is no blame attached to it.
Q: For every kind of knowledge, or skill, do I need a separate Guru?
M: There Jan be no rule in these matters, except one 'the outer is transient, the innermost--permanent and changeless', though ever new in appearance and action.
Q: What is the relation between the inner and the outer Gurus?
M: The outer represent the inner, the inner accepts the outer-- for a time.
Q: Whose is the effort?
M: The disciple's, of course. The outer Guru gives the instruc- tions, the inner sends the strength; the alert application is the disciple's. Without will, intelligence and energy on the part of the disciple the outer Guru is helpless. The inner Guru bids his chance. Obtuseness and wrong pursuits bring about a crisis and the disciple wakes up to his own plight. Wise is he who does not wait for a shock, which can be quite rude.
Q: Is it a threat?
M: Not a threat, a warning. The inner Guru is not committed to non-violence. He can be quite violent at times, to the point of destroying the obtuse or perverted personality. Suffering and death, as life and happiness, are his tools of work. It is only in duality that non-violence becomes the unifying law.
Q: Has one to be afraid of his own self?
M: Not afraid, for the self means well.. But it must be taken seri- ously. It calls for attention and obedience; when it is not listened 374 1 AM THAI to, it turns from persuasion to compulsion, for while it can wait, it shall not be denied. The difficulty lies not with the Guru, inner or outer. The Guru is always available. It is the ripe disciple that is lacking. When a person is not ready, what can be done?
Q: Ready or willing?
M: Both. It comes to the same. In India we call it adhikari. It means both capable and entitled.
Q: Can the outer Guru grant initiation (diksha)?
M: He can give all kinds of initiations, but the initiation into Real- ity must come from within.
Q: Who gives the ultimate initiation?
M: It is self-given.
Q: I feel we are running in circles. After all, I know one self only, the present, empirical self. The inner or higher self is but an idea conceived to explain and encourage. We talk of it as having in- dependent existence. It hasn't.
M: The outer self and the inner both are imagined. The obses- sion of being an 'I' needs another obsession with a 'super-l' to get cured, as one needs another thorn to remove a thorn, or another poison to neutralize a poison. All assertion calls for a denial, but this is the first step only. The next is to go beyond both.
Q: I do understand that the outer Guru is needed to call my at- tention to myself and to the urgent need of doing something about myself. I also understand how helpless he is when it comes to any deep change in me. But here you bring in the sad guru, the inner Guru, be~inningless, changeless, the root of being, the standing promise, the certain goal. Is he a concept or a reality?
M: He is the only reality. All else is shadow, cast by the body- mind (deha-buddhi) on the face of time. Of course, even a shadow is related to reality, but by itself it is not real.
Q: I am the only reality I know. The sad guru is there as long as I think of him. What dug I gain by shifting reality to him?
M: Your loss is your gain. When the shadow is seen to be a shadow only, you stop following it. You Tom round and discover IN PEACE AND SILENCE YOU GROW 375 the sun which was there all the time--behind your back!
Q: Does the inner Guru also teach?
M: He grants the conviction that you are the eternal, change- less, reality-consciousness-love, within and beyond all appear- ances.
Q: A conviction is not enough. There must be certainty.
M: Quite right. But in this case certainty takes the shape of courage. Fear ceases absolutely. This state of fearlessness is so unmistakably new, yet felt deeply as one's own, that it cannot be denied. It is like loving one's own child. Who can doubt it?
Q: We hear of progress in our spiritual endeavors. What kind of progress do you have in mind?
M: When you go-beyond progress, you will know what is prog- ress.
Q: What makes us progress?
M: Silence is the main factor. In peace and silence you grow.
Q: The mind is so absolutely restless. For quieting it what is the way?
M: Trust the teacher. Take my own case. My Guru ordered me to attend to the sense 'I am' and to give attention to nothing else. I just obeyed. I did not follow any particular course of breathing, or meditation, or study of scriptures. Whatever happened, I would turn away my attention from it and remain with the sense PI am', it may look too simple, even crude. My only reason for doing it was that my Guru told me so. Yet it worked! Obedience is a powerful solvent of all desires and fears. Just turn away from all that occupies the mind; do whatever work you have to complete, but avoid new obligations; keep empty, keep available, resist not what comes uninvited. In the end you reach a state of non-grasping, of joyful non- attachment, of inner ease and freedom indescribable, yet won- derfully real.
Q: When a truth-seeker earnestly practices his Yogas, does his inner Guru guide and help him or does he weave him to his owr~ resources, just waiting for the outcome?
M: All happens try itself. Neither the seeker. nor the Guru do 376 1 AM THAT anything. Things happen as they happen; blame or praise are apportioned later, after the sense of doer ship appearing.
Q: How strange! Surely the doer comes before the deed.
M: It is the other way round; the deed is a fact, the doer a mere concept. Your very language shows that while the deed is cer- tain, the doer is dubious; shifting responsibility is a game pecul- iarly human. Considering the endless list of factors required for anything to happen, one can only admit that everything is re- sponsible for everything, however remote. Doer ship is a myth born from the illusion of 'me' and 'the mine'.
Q: How powerful the illusion?
M: No doubt, because based on reality.
Q: What is real in it?
M: Find out, by discerning and rejecting all that is unreal.
Q: I have not understood well the role of the inner self in spiritual endeavor. Who makes the effort? Is it the outer self, or the inner?
M: You have invented words like effort, inner, outer, self, etc. and seek to impose them on reality. Things just happen to be as they are, but we want to build them into a pattern, laid down by the structure of our language. So strong is this habit, that we tend to deny reality to what cannot be verbalized. We just refuse to see that words are mere symbols, related by convention and habit to repeated experiences.
Q: What is the value of spiritual books?
M: They help in dispelling ignorance. They are useful in the be- ginning, but become a hindrance in the end. One must know when to discard them.
Q: What is the link between at ma and sattva, between the self and the universal harmony?
M: As between the sun and its rays. Harmony and beauty, un- derstanding and affection are all expressions of reality. It is rea- lity in action, the impact of the spirit on matter. Tam as obscures, rajahs distorts, sattva harmonizes. With the maturing of the sattva all desires and fears come to an end. The real being is reflected in the mind undistorted. Matter is redeemed, spirit--revealed. IN PEACE AND SILENCE YOU GROW 37;' The two are seen as one. They were always one, but the imper- fect mind saw them as two. Perfection of the mind is the human task, for matter and spirit meet in the mind.
Q: I feel like a man before a door. I know the door is open but it is guarded by the dogs of desire and fear. What am I to do?
M: Obey the teacher and brave the dogs. Behave as if they were not there. Again, obedience is the golden rule. Freedom is won by obedience. To escape from prison one must unques- tioningly obey instructions sent by those who work for one's re- lease.
Q: The words of the Guru, when merely heard, have little power. One must have faith to obey them. What creates such faith?
M: When time comes, faith comes. Everything comes in time. The Guru is always ready to share, but there are no takers.
Q: Yes, Sri Ramana Maharshi used to say: Gurus there are many, but where are the disciples?
M: Well, in the course of time everything happens. All will come through, not a single soul (Java) shall be lost.
Q: I am very much afraid of taking intellectual understanding for realization. I may talk of truth without knowing it, and may know it without a single word said. . I understand these conversations are going to be published. What will be their effect on the reader?
M: In the attentive and thoughtful rearer Inky Will pen an a bring out flowers and fruits. Words based on truth, if fully tested, have their own power. รน--- To Know that You do not Know, is True Knowledge 76
Maharaj: There is the body. Inside the body appears to be an observer and outside--a world under observation. The ob- server and his observation as well as the world observed Al pear and disappear together. Beyond it all, there is void. This void is one for all.
Questioner: What you say appears simple, but not everyone would say it. It is you, and you alone, who talks of the three and the void beyond. I see the world only, which includes all.
M: Even the 'I am'?
Q: Even the 'I am'. The 'I am' is there because the world is there.
M: And the world is there because the 'I am' is there. Q. Yes, it goes both ways. I cannot separate the two, nor go beyond, I cannot say something is, unless I experience it, as I cannot say something is not, because I do not experience it. What is it that you experience that makes you speak with such assurance?
M: I know myself as I am--timeless, spaceless, causeless. You happen not to know, being engrossed as you are in other things.
Q: Why am I so engrossed?
M: Because you are interested.
Q: What makes me interested?
M: Fear of pain, desire for pleasure. Pleasant is the ending of pain and painful the end of pleasure. They just rotate in endless TO KNOW THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW. IS TRUE KN~WI Fr~lF ~7q succession. Investigate the vicious circle till you find yourself beyond it.
Q: Don't I need your grace to take me beyond?
M: The grace of your Inner Reality is timelessly with you. Your very asking for grace is a sign of it. Do not worry about my grace, but do what you are told. The doing is the proof of ear- nestness, not the expecting of grace.
Q: What am I to be earnest about?
M: Assiduously investigate everything that crosses your field of attention. With practice the field will broaden and investigation deepen, until they become spontaneous and limitless.
Q: Are you not making realization the result of practice? Prac- tice operates within the limitations of physical existence. How can it give birth to the unlimited?
M: Of course, there car. be no causal connection between practice and wisdom. But the obstacles to wisdom are deeply affected by practice.
Q: What are the obstacles?
M: Wrong ideas and desires leading to wrong actions, causing dissipation and weakness of mind and body. The discovery and abandonment of the false remove what prevents the real enter- ing the mind. .
Q: I can distinguish two states of mind: 'I am' and 'the world is; they arise and subside together. People say: 'I am, because the world is'. You seem to say: 'The world is, because 'I am'. Which is true? M Neither. The two are one and the same state, in space and time. Beyond, there is the timeless.
Q: What is the connection between time and the timeless?
M: The timeless knows the time, the time does not know the timeless. All consciousness is in time and to it the timeless ap- pears unconscious. Yet, it is what makes consciousness possi- ble. Light shines in darkness. In light darkness is not visible. Or, you can put itthe other way--in the endless ocean of light, clouds of Consciousness appear--dark and limited, percei- vable by contrast. These are mere attempts to express in words 474 1 AM THAT
Q: I do not think I am fit for Yoga.
M: What else are you fit for? All your going and coming, seeking pleasure, loving and hating--all this shows that you struggle against limitations, self-imposed or accepted. In your ignorance you make mistakes and cause pain to yourself and others, but the urge is there and shall not be denied. The same urge that seeks birth, happiness and death shall seek understanding and liberation. !t is like a spark of fire in a cargo of cotton. You may not know about it, but sooner or later the ship will burst in flames. Liberation is a natural process and in the long run, in- evitable. But it is within your power to bring it into the now.
Q: Then why are so few liberated people in the world?
M: In a forest only some of the trees are in full bloom at a given moment, yet every one will have its turn. Sooner or later your physical and mental resources will come to an end. What will you do then? Despair? All right, despair. You will get tired of despairing and begin to question. At that moment you will be fit for conscious Yoga.
Q: I find all this seeking and brooding most unnatural.
M: Yours is the naturalness of a born cripple. YGU may be un- aware but it does not make you normal. What it means to be natural or normal you do not know, nor do you know that you do not know. At present you are drifting and therefore in danger, for to a drifter any moment anything may happen. It would be better to wake up and see your situation. That you are--you know. What you are--you don't know. Find out what you are.
Q: Why is there so much suffering in the world?
M: Selfishness is the cause of suffering. There is no other cause.
Q: I understood that suffering is inherent in limitation.
M: Differences and distinctions are not the causes of sorrow. Unity in diversity is natural and good. It is only with separate- ness and self-seeking that real suffering appears in the world 92 Go Beyond the l-am-the-body Idea
Questioner: We are like animals, running about in vain pursuits and there seems to be no end to it. Is there a way out? Maharaja: Many ways will be offered to you which will but take you round and bring you back to your starting point. First realize that your problem exists in your waking state only, that however painful it is, you are able to forget it altogether when you go to sleep. When you are awake you are conscious; when you are asleep, you are only alive. Consciousness and life--both you may call God; but you are beyond both, beyond God, beyond being and not-being. What prevents you from knowing yourself as all and beyond all, is the mind based on memory. It has power over you as long as you trust it; don't struggle with it; just disregard it. Deprived of attention, it will slow down and reveal the mechanism of its working. Once you know its nature and purpose, you will not allow it to create imaginary problems.
Q: Surely, not all problems are imaginary. There are real prob- lems.
M: What problems can there be which the mind did not create? Life and death do not create problems; pains and pleasures come and go, experienced and forgotten. It is memory and an- ticipation that create problems of attainment or avoidance, col- ored by like and dislike. Truth and love are man's real nature and mind and heart are the means of its expression.
Q: How to bring the mind under control? And the heart, which does not know what it wants?
M: They cannot work in darkness. They need the light of pure 476 1 AM THAT awareness to function rightly. All effort at control will merely sub- ject them to the dictates of memory. Memory is a good servant, but a bad master. It effectively prevents discovery. There is no place for effort in reality. It is selfishness, due to a self- identification with the body, that is the main problem and the cause of all other problems. And selfishness cannot be re- moved by effort, only by clear insight into its causes and effects. Effort is a sign of conflict between incompatible desires. They should be seen as they are--then only they dissolve.
Q: And what remains?
M: That which cannot change, remains. The great peace, the deep silence, the hidden beauty of reality remain. While it can not be conveyed through words, it is waiting for you to experi- ence for yourself.
Q: Must not one be fit and eligible for realization? Our nature is animal to the core. Unless it is conquered, how can we hope for reality to dawn?
M: Leave the animal alone. Let it be. Just remember what you are. Use every incident of the day to remind you that without you as the witness there would be neither animal nor God. Under- stand that you are both, the essence and the substance of all there is. and remain firm in your understanding.
Q: Is understanding enough? Don't I need more tangible proofs?
M: It is your understanding that will decide about the validity of proofs. But what more tangible proof do you need than your own existence? Wherever you go you find yourself. However far you reach out in time, you are there.
Q: Obviously, I am not all-per.wading and eternal. I am only here and now.
M: Good enough. The 'here' is everywhere and the now--al- ways. Go beyond 'I-am-the-body' idea and you will find that space and time are in you and not you in space and time. Once you have understood this, the main oustCole to realization is re- moved.
M: Why do you bring in an outer doer? The world recreates it- self out of itself. It is an endless process, the transitory begetting the transitory. It is your ego that makes you think that there must be a doer. You create a God to your own Image, however dismal the image. Through the film of your mind you project a world and also a God to give it cause and purpose. It is all imagination --step out of it. WHAT IS PURE. UNALLOYED. UNATTACHED IS REAL 355 giblet reality of it seems so very convincing.
M: This is the mystery of imagination, that it seems to be so real. You may be celibate or married, a monk or a family man; that is not the point. Are you a slave of your imagination, or are you not? Whatever decision you take, whatever work you do, it will be invariably based on imagination, on assumptions parading as facts.
Q: Here I am sitting in front of you. What part of it is imagina- tion?
M: The whole of it. Even space and time are imagined.
Q: Does it mean that I don't exist?
M: I too do not exist. All existence is imaginary.
Q: Is being too imaginary?
M: Pure being, filling all and beyond all, is not existence which is limited. All limitation is imaginary, only the unlimited is real.
Q: When you look at me, what do you see?
M: I see you imagining yourself to be.
Q: There are many like me. Yet each is different.
M: The totality of all projections is what is called maha-maya, the Great Illusion.
Q: But when you look at yourself, what Jo you see?
M: It depends how I look. When I look through the mind, I see numberless people. When I look beyond the mind, I see the wit- ness. Beyond the witness there is the infinite intensity of empti- ness and silence.
Q: How to deal with people?
M: Why make plans and what for? Such questions show anxi- ety. Relationship is a living thing. Be at peace with your inner self and you will be at peace with everybody. Realize that you are not the master of what happens, you cannot control the future except in purely technical matters. Human relationship cannot be planned, it is too rich and varied. Just be understanding and compassionate, free of all self- seeking.
Q: How difficult it is to see the world as purely mental! The tan-
Q: Surely, I am not the master of what happens. Its slave rather 356 1 AM THAT
M: Be neither master, nor slave. Stand aloof.
Q: Does it imply avoidance of action?
M: You cannot avoid action. It happens, like everything else.
Q: My actions, surely, I can control.
M: Try. You will soon see that you do what you must.
Q: I can act according to my will.
M: You know your will only after you have acted.
Q: I remember my desires, the choices made, the decisions taken and act accordingly.
M: Then your memory decides, not you.
Q: Where do I come in?
M: You make it possible by giving it attention.
Q: Is there no such thing as free will? Am I not free to desire?
M: Oh no, you are compelled to desire. In Hinduism the very idea of free will is non-existent, so there is no word for it. Will is commitment, fixation, bondage.
Q: I am free to choose my limitations.
M: You must be Frey first. To be free in the world you must be free of the world. Otherwise your past decides for you and your future. Between what had happened and what must happen you are caught. Call it destiny or karma, but never--freedom. First return to your true being and then act from the heart of love.
Q: Within the manifested what is the stamp of the un- manifested?
M: There is none. The moment you begin to look for the stamp of the unmanifested, the manifested dissolves. If you try to us derstand the unmanifested with the mind, you at once go beyond the mind, like when you stir the fire with a wooden stick, you burn the stick. Use the mind to investigate the manifested. Be like the chick that pecks at the shell. Speculating about life outside the shell would have been of little use to it, but pecking at the shell breaks the shell from within and liberates the chick. Similarly, break the mind from within by investigation and ex- posure of its contradictions and absurdities. 0: The longing to break the shell, where does it come from? I: From the ursmanifested. Death of the Mind is Birth of Wisdom
Questioner: Before one can realize one's true nature need not one be a person? Does not the ego have its value? Maharaja: The person is of little use. It is deeply involved in its own affairs and is completely ignorant of its true being. Unless the witnessing consciousness begins to play on the person and it becomes the object of observation rather than the subject, realization is not feasible. It is the witness that makes realization desirable and attainable.
Q: There comes a point in a person's life when it becomes the witness.
M: Oh, no. The person by itself will not become the witness. It is like expecting a cold candle to start burning in the course of time. The person can stay in the darkness of ignorance forever, unless the flame of awareness touches it.
Q: Who lights the candle?
M: The Guru. His words, his presence. In India it is very often the monetary. Once the candle is lighted, the flame will consume the candle.
Q: Why is the monetary so effective?
M: Constant repetition of the monetary is something the person does not do for one's own sake. The beneficiary is not the per- son. Just like the candle which does not increase by burning.
Q: Can the person become aware of itself by itself?
M: Yes, it happens sometimes as a result of much suffering The Guru wants to save you the endless pain. Such is his grace 358 1 AM THAT Even when there is no discoverable outer Guru, there is always the sad guru, the inner Guru, who directs and helps from within. The words 'outer' and 'inner' are relative to the body only; in real- ity all is one, the outer being merely a projection of the inner. Awareness comes as if from a higher dimension.
Q: Before the spark is lit and after, what is the difference?
M: Before the spark is lit there is no witness to perceive the dif- ference. The person may be conscious, but is not aware of being conscious. It is completely identified with what it thinks and feels and experiences. The darkness that is in it is of its own creation. When the darkness i6 questioned, it dissolves. The desire to question is planted by the Guru. In other words, the dif- ference between the person and the witness is as between not knowing and knowing oneself. The world seen in consciousness is to be of the nature of consciousness, when there is harmony (sattva); but when activity and passivity (rajahs and tarr~as) appear, they obscure and distort and you see the false as real.
Q: What can the person do to prepare itself for the coming of the Guru.
M: The very desire to be ready means that the Guru had come and the flame is lighted. It may be a stray word, or a page in a book; the Guru's grace works mysteriously.
Q: Is there no such thing as self-preparation? We hear so much about yoga sadhana?
M: It is not the person that is doing sadhana. The person is in unrest and resistance to the very end. It is the witness that works on the person, on the totality of its illusions, past, present and fu- ture.
Q: How can we know that what you say is true? While it is self- contained and free from inner contradictions, how can we know that it is not a product of fertile imagination, nurtured and en- riched by constant repetition?
M: The proof of the truth lies in its effect on the listener. a Words can have a most powerful effect. By hearing, or re- peating words, one can experience various kinds of trances. The listener's experiences may be induced and cannot be con- sidered as a proof. DEATH OF THE MIND IS BIRTH OF WISDOM 359
M: The effect need not necessarily be an experience. It can Fe a change in character, in motivation, in relationship to people and one's self. Trances and visions induced by words, or drugs, or any other sensory or mental means are temporary and incon- clusive. The truth of what is said here is Immovable and everlast- ing. And the proof of it is in the listener, in the deep and perma- nent changes in his entire being. It is not something he can doubt, unless he doubts his own existence, which is unthinka- ble. When my experience becomes your own experience also, what better proof do you want.?
Q: The experience is the proof of his experience.
M: Quite, but the experience needs no proof. 'I am, and I know I am'. You cannot ask for further proofs.
Q: Can there be true knowledge of things?
M: Relatively--yes. Absolutely--there are no things. To Knox that nothing is is true knowledge.
Q: What is the link between the relative and the absolute?
M: They are identical.
Q: From which point of view are they identical?
M: When the words are spoken, there is silence. When the rela- tive is over, the absolute remains. The silence before the worms were spoken, is it different from the silence that comes after? The silence is one and without it the words could not have been heard. It is always there--at the back of the words. Shift your attention from words to silence and you will hear it. The mind craves for experience, the memory of which it takes for know- ledge. The nanny is beyond all experience and his memory is empty of the past. He is entirely unrelated to anything in particul- ar. But the mind craves for formulations and definitions, always eager to squeeze reality into a verbal shape. Of everything it wants an idea, for without ideas the mind is not. Rgalit is essen- tially alone, but the mind will not leave it alone I and deals in- stead with the unreal. And yet it is all the mind can do--dis- cover the unreal as unreal.
Q: And seeing the real as real? M. There is no such state as seeing the real. Who is to see what? You can only be the real--which you are, anyhow. The 360 1 AM THAT problem is only mental. Abandon false ideas, that is all. There is no need of true ideas. There aren't any.
Q: Why then are we encouraged to seek the real?
M: The mind must have a purpose. To encourage it to free itself from the unreal it is promised something in return. In reality, there is no need of purpose. Being free from the false is good in itself, it wants no reward. It is just like being clean--which is its own reward.
Q: Is not self-knowledge the reward?
M: The reward of self-knowiedge is freedom from the personal self. You cannot know the knower, for you are the knower. The fact of knowing proves the knower. You need no other proof. The knower of the known is not knowable. Just like the light is known in colors only, so is the knower known In knowledge.
Q: Is the knower an inference only?
M: You know your body, mind and feelings. Are you an infer- ence only?
Q: I am an inference to others. but not to myself.
M: So am 1. An inference to you, but not to myself. I know myself by being myself. As you know yourself to be a man by being one. You do not keep on reminding yourself that you are a man. It is only when your humanity is questioned that you assert it. Similarly, I know that I am all. I do not need to keep on repeating: 'I am all, I am all'. Only when you take me to be a particular, a person, I protest. As you are a man all the time, so I am what I am--all the time. Whatever you are changelessly, that you are beyond all doubt.
Q: When I ask how do you know that you are a nanny, you ans- wer: 'I find no desire in me. Is this not a proof?'
M: Were I full of desires, I would have still been what I am.
Q: Myself, full of desires and you, full of desires; what differ- ence would there be?
M: You identify yourself with your desires and become their slave. To me desires are things among other things, mere clouds in the mental sky, and I do not feel coupesled to act on them DEATH OF THE MIND I S Bl RTH OF WISDOM 361
Q: The knower and his knowledge, are they one or two?
M: They are both. The knower is the unmanifested, the kno\~vn is the manifested. The known is always on the move, it changes, it has no shape of its own, no dwelling place. The knower is the immutable support of all knowledge; Each needs the other, but reality lies beyond. The nanny cannot be known, because there is nobody to be known. When there is a person, you can tell sorrlething about it, but when there is no self-identification with the particular, what can be said? You may tell a nanny anything; his question will always be: 'about whom are you talking? There is no such person'. Just as you cannot say anything about the universe because it includes everything, so nothing can be said about a nanny, for he is all and yet nothing in particular. You need a hook to hang your picture on; when there is no hook, on what will the picture Han a? To locate a thing you need space, to place an event you need time; but the timeless and spaceless defies all handling. It makes everything perceivable, yet itself it is beyond perception. The mind cannot know what is beyond the mind, but the mind is known by what is beyond it. The nanny knows neither birth nor death; existence and non-existence are the same to him.
Q: When your body dies, you remain.
M: Nothing dies. The body is just imagined. There is no such thing .
Q: Before another century will pass, you will be dead to all around you. Your body will be covered with flowers, then burnt and the ashes scattered. That will be our experience. What will be yours?
M: Time will come to an end. This is called the Great Death (mahamrityu), the death of time. Q; Does it mean that the universe and its contents will come to an end? I: The universe is your personal experience. How can it be af- fected? You might have been delivering a lecture for two hours; where has it gone when it is over? It has merged into silence in which the beginning, middle and end of the lecture are all to get her. Time has come to a stop, it was, but is no more. The silen- ce after a life of talking and the silence after a life of silence is 362 1 AM THAT the same silence. Immortality is freedom from the feeling: 'I am'. Yet it is not extinction. On the contrary, it is a state infinitely more real, aware and happy than you can possibly think of. Only self-conscio~sness is no more.
Q: Why does the Great Death of the mind coincide with the 'small death' of the body?
M: It does not! You. may die a hundred deaths without a break in the mental turmoil. Or, you may keep your body and die only in the mind. The death of the mind is the birth of wisdom.
Q: The person goes and only the witness remains.
M: Who remains to say: 'I am the witness'. When there is no 'I am', where is the witness? In the timeless state there is no self to take refuge in. The man who carries a parcel is anxious not to lose it--he is parcel-conscious. The man who cherishes the feeling 'I am' is self-conscious. The nanny holds on to nothing and cannot be said to be conscious. And yet he is not unconscious. He is the very heart of awareness. We call him digambara clothed in space, the Naked One, beyond all appearance. There is no name and shape under which he may be said to exist, yet he is the only one that truly is .
Q: I cannot grasp it.
M: Who can? The mind has its limits. It is enough to bring you to the very frontiers of knowledge and make you face the immen- sity of the unknown. To dive in it is up to you.
Q: What about the witness? Is it real or unreal?
M: It is both. The last remnant of illusion, the first touch of the real. To say: I am only the witness is both false and true: false because of the 'I am', true because of the witness. It is better to say: 'there is witnessing'. The moment you say: 'I am', the entire universe comes into being along with its creator.
Q: Another question: can we visualize the person and the self as two brothers small and big? The little brother is mischievous and selfish, rude ar,d restless, while the big brother is intelligent and kind, reasonable and considerate, free from body- consciousness with its desires and fears. The big brother knows the little one. but the small one is ignorant of the big one and DEATH OF THE MIND IS BIRTH OF WISDOM 363 thinks itself to be entirely on its own. The Guru comes and tells the smaller one: 'You are not calorie, you come from a very good family, your brother is a very remarkable man, wise and kind, and he loves you very much. Remember him, think of him, find him, serve him, and you will become one with him'. Now, the question is are there two in us, the personal and the individual, the false self and the true self, or is it only a simile?
M: It is both. They appear to be two, but on investigation they are found to be one. Duality lasts only as long as it is not ques- tioned. The trinity: mind, self and spirit (vacuity, vacuity, avyakta), when looked into, becomes unity These are only modes of ex- periencing: of attachment, of detachment, of transcendence.
Q: Your assumption that we are in a dream state makes your position unassailable. Whatever objection we raise, you just deny its validity. One cannot discuss with you!
M: The desire to discuss is also mere desire. The desire to know, to have the power, even the desire to exist are desires only. Everybody desires to be, to survive, to continue, for no one is sure of himself. But everybody is immortal. You make yourself mortal by taking yourself to be the body.
Q: Since you have found your freedom, will you not give me a little of it?
M: Why little? Take the whole. Take it, it is there for the taking. But you are afraid of freedom!
Q: Swami Ramdas had to deal with a similar request. Some de- votees collected round him one day and began to ask for libera- tion. Remedies listened smilingly and then suddenly he became serious and said: You can have it, here and now, freedom abso- lute and permanent. Who wants it, come forward. Nobody moved. Thrice he repeated the offer. None accepted. Then he said: 'The offer is withdrawn'.
M: Attachment destroys cot~rage. The giver is always ready to give. The taker is absent. Freedom means letting go. People just do not care to let go everything. They do not know that the finite is the price of the infinite, as death is the price of immortality. Spiritual maturity lies in the readiness to let go everything. The giving up is the first step. But the real giving up is in realizing 364 1 AM THAT that there is nothing to give up, for nothing is your own. It is like deep sleep--you do not give up your bed when you fall sleep --you just forget it. Truth is Here and Now รน--- 74
Questioner: My question is: What is the proof of truth? Followers of every religion, metaphysical or political, philosophical or ethi- cal, are convinced that their's is the only truth, that all else is false and they take their own unshakable conviction for the proof of truth. 'I am convinced, so it must be true', they say. It seems to me, that no philosophy or religion, no doctrine or ideology, however complete, free from inner contradictions and emotionally appealing, can be the proof of its own truth. They are like clothes men put on, which vary with times and circums- tances and follow the fashion trends. Now, can there be a religion or philosophy which is true and which does not depend on somebody's conviction? Nor on scriptures, because they again depend on somebody's faith in them? Is there a truth which does not depend on trusting, which is not subjective? Maharaja: What about science?
Q: Science is circular, it ends where it starts, with the senses. It deals with experience, and experience is subjective. No two persons can have the same experience, though they may ex- press it in the same words. TRUTH IS HERE AND NOW 365
M: You must look for truth beyond the mind.
Q: Sir, I have had enough of trances. Any drug can induce them cheaply and quickly. Even the classical samadhis, caused by breathing or mental exercises, are not much different. There are oxygen samadhis and carbon dioxide samadhis and self- induced samadhis, caused by-repetition of a formula or a chain of thoughts. Monotony is soporific. I cannot accept samadhi, however glorious, as a proof of truth.
M: Samadhi is beyond experience. It is a quality less state.
Q: The absence of experience is due to inattention. It reap- pears with attention. Closing one's eyes does not disprove light. Attributing reality to negative states will not take us far. The very negation contains an affirmation.
M: In a way you are right. But don't you see, you are asking for the proof of truth, without explaining what is the truth you have in mind and what proof will satisfy you? You can prove anything, provided you trust your proof. But what will prove that your proof is true? I can easily drive you into an admission that you know only that you exist--that you are the only proof you can have of anything. But I do not identify mere existence with reality. Exis- tence is momentary, always in time and space, while reality is changeless and all-pervading.
Q: Sir, I do not know what is truth and what can prove it. Do not throw me on my own resources. I have none. Here you are the truth-knower, not me.
M: You refuse testimony as the proof of truth: the experience of others is of no use to you, you reject all inference from the con- curring statements of a vast number of independent witnesses; so it is for~you to tell me what is the proof that will satisfy you, what is your test of a valid proof?
Q: Honestly, I do not know what makes a proof.
M: Not even your own experience? 0: Neither my experience, nor even existence. They depend on my being conscious. .
M: Arid your being conscious depends on what?
Q: I do not know. Formerly, i would have said: on my body; now ~66 1 AM THAT I can see that the body is secondary, not primary, and cannot be considered as an evidence of existence.
M: I am glad you have abandoned the l-am-the-body idea, the main source of error and suffering.
Q: I have abandoned it intellectually, but the sense of being the particular, a person, is still with me. I can say: 'I am', but what I am I cannot say. I know I exist, but I do not know what exists. Whichever way I put it, I face the unknown.
M: Your very being is the real.
Q: Surely, we are not talking of the same thing. I am not some abstract being. I am a person, limited and aware of its limita- tions. I am a fact, but a most unsubstantial fact I am. There is no- thing I can build on my momentary existence as a person.
M: Your words are wiser than you are! As a person, your exis- tence is momentary. But are you a person only? Are you a per- son at all?
Q: How am I to answer? My sense of being proves only that I am; it does not prove anything which is independent of me. I am relative, both creature and creator of the relative. The absolute proof of the absolute truth--what is it, where is it? Can the mere feeling 'I am' be the proof of reality?
M: Of course not. 'I am' and 'the world is' are related and condi- tional. They are due to the tendency of the mind to project names and shapes.
Q: Names and shapes and ideas and convictions, but not truth. But for you, I would have accepted the relativity of everything, including truth, and learnt to live by assumptions. But then I meet you and hear you talking of the Absolute as within my reach and also as supremely desirable. Words like peace, bliss, eternity, immortality, catch my attention, as offering freedom from pain and fear. My inborn instincts: pleasure seeking and curiosity are roused and I begin to explore the realm you have opened. All seems most attractive and naturally I ask. Is it at- tainable? Is it real?
M: You are like a child that says: Prove that the sugar is sweet then only I shall have it. The proof of the sweetness is in the mouth not in the sugar. To know it is sweet, you must taste it, TRUTH IS HERE AND DOW 367 there is no other way. Of course, you begin by asking: Is it sugar? Is it sweet? and you accept my assurance until you taste it. Then only all doubts dissolve and your knowledge becomes first hand and unshakable. 1 do not ask you to believe me. Just trust me enough to begin with. Every step proves or disproves itself. You seem to want the proof of truth to precede fit Ruth. And what will be the proof of the proof? You see, you are falling into a regress. To cut it you must put a stop to asking for proofs and accept, for a moment only, something as true. It does not really matter what it is. It may be God, or me, or your own self. In each case you accept something, or somebody, unknown as true. Now, if you act on the truth you have accepted, even for a mo- ment, very soon you will be brought to the next step. It is like climbing a tree in the dark--you can get hold of the next branch only when you are perched on the previous one. In sci- ence it is called the experimental approach. To prove a theory you carry out an experiment according to tore operational in- structions, left by those who have made the experiment before you. In spiritual search the chain of experiments one has to make is called Yoga.
Q: There are so many Yogas, which to choose?
M: Of course, every nanny will suggest the path of his own at- tainment as the one he knows most intimately. But most of them are very liberal and adapt their advice to the needs of the en- quire. All the paths take you to the purification of the mind. The impure mind is opaque to truth; the pure mind is transparent. Truth can be seen through it easily and clearly.
Q: I am sorry, but I seem unable to convey my difficulty. I Ann asking about the proof of truth and am being given the methods of attaining it. Assuming I follow the methods and attain some most wonderful and desirable state, how do I come to know that my state is true? Every religion begins with faith and promises some ecstasy. Is. the ecstasy of the real, or the product of faith? For, if it is an induced state, I shall have nothing to do with it. Take Christianity that says: Jesus is your Saviour, believe and be saved from sin. When I ask a sinning Christian how is it Thai he has not been saved from sin in spite of his faith in Christ, he answers: My faith is not perfect. Again we are in the vicious cur 368 1 AM THAT Cole--without perfect faith--no salvation, without salvation-- no perfect faith, hence no salvation. Conditions are imposed which are unfulfillable and then we are blamed for not fulfilling them.
M: You do not realize that your present waking state is one of ignorance. Your question about the proof of truth is born from ignorance of reality. You are contacting your sensory and men- tal states in consciousness, at the point of 'I am', while reality is not mediated, not contacted, not experienced. You are taking duality so much for granted, that you do not even notice it, while to me variety and diversity do not create separation. You ima- gine reality to stand apart from names and forms, while to me names and forms are the ever changing expressions of reality and not apart from it. You ask for the proof of truth while to me all existence is the proof. You separate existence from being and being from reality, while to me it is all one. However much you are convinced of the truth of your waking state, you do not claim it to be permanent and changeless, as I do when I talk of mine. Yet I see no difference between us, except that you are imagin- ing things, while I do not.
Q: First you disqualify me from asking about truth, then you ac- cuse me of imagination! What is imagination to you is reality to me.
M: Until you investigate. I am not accusing you of anything. I am only asking you to question wisely. Instead of searching for the proof of truth, which you do not know, go through the proofs you have of what you believe to know. You will find you know no- thing for sure--you trust on hearsay. To know the truth, you must pass through your own experience.
Q: I am mortally afraid of samadhis and other trances, whatever their cause. A drink, a smoke, a fever, a drug, breathing, sing- ing, shaking, dancing, whirling, praying, sex or fasting, mentors or some vertiginous abstraction can dislodge me from my wak- ing state and give me some experience, extraordinary because unfamiliar. But when the cause ceases, the effect dissolves and only a memory remains, haunting but fading. Let us give up all means and their results, for the results are bound by the means; let us put the question anew; can truth be found? TRUTH IS HERE AND NOW 369
M: Where is the dwelling place of truth where you could go in search of it? And how will you know that you have found it? What touchstone do you bring with you to test it? You are back at your initial question: What is the proof of truth? There must be some- thing wrong with the question itself, for you tend to repeat it again and again. Why do you ask what are the proofs of truth? Is it not because you do not know truth first hand and you are af- raid that you may be deceived? You imagine that truth is a thing which carries the name 'truth' and that it is advantageous to have it, provided it is genuine. Hence your fear of being cheated. You are shopping for truth, but you do not trust the merchants. You are afraid of forgeries and imitations.
Q: I am not afraid of being cheated. I am afraid of cheating my- self.
M: But you are cheating yourself in your ignorance of your true motives. You are asking for truth, but in fact you merely seek comfort, which you want to last for ever. Now, nothing, no state of mind, can last for ever. In time and space there is always a limit, because time and space themselves are limited. And in the timeless the words 'for ever' have no meaning. The same with the 'proof of truth'. In the realm of non-duality everything is complete, its own proof, meaning and purpose. Where all is one, no supports are needed. You imagine that permanence is the proof of truth, that what lasts longer is somehow more true. Time becomes the measure of truth. And since time is in the mind, the mind becomes the arbiter and searches within itself the proof of truth--a task altogether impossible and hopeless!
Q: Sir, were you to say: Nothing is true, all is relative, I would agree with you. But you maintain there is truth, reality, perfect knowledge, therefore I ask: What is it and how do you know? And what will make me say: Yes, Maharaj was right?
M: You are holding on to the need for a proof, a testimony, an authority. You still imagine that truth needs pointing at and tel- ling you: 'Look, here is truth'. It is not so. Truth is not the result of an effort, the end of a road. It is here and now, in the very long- ing and the search for it. It is nearer than themind and the body, nearer than the sense 'I am'. You do not see it because you look too far away from yourself, outside your innermost being. You 370 1 AM THAT have objectified truth and insist on your standard proofs and tests, which apply only to things and thoughts.
Q: All I can make out from what you say is that truth is beyond me and I am not qualified to talk about it.
M: You are not only qualified, but you are truth itself. Only you mistake the false for the true.
Q: You seem to say: Don't ask for proofs of truth. Concern your- self with untruth only.
M: The discovery of truth is in the discernment of the false. You can know what is not. What is--you can only be. Knowledge is relative to the known. In a way it is the counterpart of ignorance. Where ignorance is not, where is the need of knowledge? By themselves neither ignorance nor knowledge have being. They are only states of mind, which again is but an appearance of movement in consciousness which is in its essence immutable.
Q: Is truth within the realm of the mind or beyond?
M: It is neither, it is both. It cannot be put into words.
Q: This is what I hear all the time -- inexpressible (anirvachaniya). It does not make me wiser.
M: It is true that it often covers sheer ignorance. The mind can operate with terms of its own making, it just cannot go beyond itself. That which is neither sensory nor mental, and yet without which neither sensory nor the mental can exist, cannot be, con- tained in them. Do understand that the mind has its limits; to go beyond, you must consent to silence. a: Can we say that action is the proof of truth? It may not be verbalized, but it may be demonstrated.
M: Neither action nor inaction. It is beyond both.
Q: Can a man ever say:-'Yes, this is true'? Or is he limited to the denial of the false? In other words, is truth pure negation? Or, does a moment come when it becomes assertion?
M: Truth cannot be described, but it can be experienced.
Q: Experience is subjective, it cannot be shared. Your experi- ences leaves me where I am. M Truth can be experienced, but it is not mere experience. I know it and I can convey it, but only if you are open to it. To be TRUTH IS HERE AND NOW 371 open means to want nothing else.
Q: I am full of desires and Fe a s. Does it mean that I am not eligi- ble for truth?
M: Truth is not a reward for good behavior, nor a prize for pas- sing some tests. It cannot be brought about. It is the primary, the unborn, the ancient source of all that is. You are eligible be- cause you are. You need not merit truth. It is your own. Just stop running away by running after. Stand still, be quiet.
Q: Sir, if you want the Cody to be still and the mind--quiet, tell Rae how it is done. In self-awareness I see the body and the mind moved by causes beyond my control. Heredity and envi- ronment dominate me absolutely. The mighty 'I am', the creator of the universe, can be wiped out by a drug temporarily, or a drop of poison--permanently.
M: Again, you take yourself to be the body.
Q: Even if I dismiss this body of bones, flesh and blood as not-me, still I remain with the subtle body made up of thoughts and feelings, memories and imaginations. If I dismiss these also as not-me, I still remain with consciousness, which also is a kind of body.
M: You are quite right, but you need not stop there. Go beyond. Neither consciousness, nor the 'I am' at the center of it are you. Your true being is entirely unselfconscious, completely free frTom all self-identification with whatever it may be, gross, subtle or transcendental.
Q: I can imagine myself to be beyond. But what proof have l? To be, I must be somebody.
M: It is the other way round. To be, you must be nobody. To think yourself to be something, or somebody, is death and hell.
Q: I have read that in ancient Egypt people were admitted to some mysteries where, under the influence of drugs or incanta- tions, they would be expelled from their bodies and could actu- ally experience standing outside and looking at their own pros- trate forms. This was intended to convince them of the reality of the after-death existence and create in them a deep concern with their ultimate destiny, so profitable to the state and temple. The self-identification with the person owning the body Re- x372 1 AM THAT main Ed
M: The body is made of food, as the mind is made of thoughts. See them as they are. Non-identification, when natural and spontaneous, is liberation. You need not know what you are. Enough to know what you are not. What you are you will never know, for every discovery reveals new dimensions to conquer. The unknown has no limits.
Q: Does it imply ignorance for ever?
M: It means that ignorance never was. Truth is in the discovery not in the discovered. And to discovery there is no beginning and no end. Question the limits, go beyond, set yourself tasks apparently impossible--this is the way. In Peace and Silence you Grow
Questioner: The Indian tradition tells us that the Guru is indis- pensable. What is he indispensable for? A mother is indispens- able for giving the child a body. But the soul she does not give. Her role is limited. How is it with the Guru? Is his role also li- mited, and if so, to what? Or is he indispensable generally, even absolutely? Maharaja: The innermost light, shining peacefully and timelessly in the heart, is the real Guru. All others merely show the way.
Q: I am not concerned with the inner Guru. only with the one IN PEACE AND SILENCE YOU GROW 373 that shows the way. There are people who believe that without a Guru Yoga is inaccessible. They are ever in search of the right Guru, changing one for another Of what value are such Gurus?
M: They are temporary, time-bound Gurus. You find them in every walk of life. You need them for acquiring any knowledge or skill.
Q: A mother is only for a lifetime, she begins at birth and ends at death. She is not for ever.
M:. Similarly, the time-bound Guru is not for ever. He fulfill his purpose and yields his place to the next. It is quite natural and there is no blame attached to it.
Q: For every kind of knowledge, or skill, do I need a separate Guru?
M: There Jan be no rule in these matters, except one 'the outer is transient, the innermost--permanent and changeless', though ever new in appearance and action.
Q: What is the relation between the inner and the outer Gurus?
M: The outer represent the inner, the inner accepts the outer-- for a time.
Q: Whose is the effort?
M: The disciple's, of course. The outer Guru gives the instruc- tions, the inner sends the strength; the alert application is the disciple's. Without will, intelligence and energy on the part of the disciple the outer Guru is helpless. The inner Guru bids his chance. Obtuseness and wrong pursuits bring about a crisis and the disciple wakes up to his own plight. Wise is he who does not wait for a shock, which can be quite rude.
Q: Is it a threat?
M: Not a threat, a warning. The inner Guru is not committed to non-violence. He can be quite violent at times, to the point of destroying the obtuse or perverted personality. Suffering and death, as life and happiness, are his tools of work. It is only in duality that non-violence becomes the unifying law.
Q: Has one to be afraid of his own self?
M: Not afraid, for the self means well.. But it must be taken seri- ously. It calls for attention and obedience; when it is not listened 374 1 AM THAI to, it turns from persuasion to compulsion, for while it can wait, it shall not be denied. The difficulty lies not with the Guru, inner or outer. The Guru is always available. It is the ripe disciple that is lacking. When a person is not ready, what can be done?
Q: Ready or willing?
M: Both. It comes to the same. In India we call it adhikari. It means both capable and entitled.
Q: Can the outer Guru grant initiation (diksha)?
M: He can give all kinds of initiations, but the initiation into Real- ity must come from within.
Q: Who gives the ultimate initiation?
M: It is self-given.
Q: I feel we are running in circles. After all, I know one self only, the present, empirical self. The inner or higher self is but an idea conceived to explain and encourage. We talk of it as having in- dependent existence. It hasn't.
M: The outer self and the inner both are imagined. The obses- sion of being an 'I' needs another obsession with a 'super-l' to get cured, as one needs another thorn to remove a thorn, or another poison to neutralize a poison. All assertion calls for a denial, but this is the first step only. The next is to go beyond both.
Q: I do understand that the outer Guru is needed to call my at- tention to myself and to the urgent need of doing something about myself. I also understand how helpless he is when it comes to any deep change in me. But here you bring in the sad guru, the inner Guru, be~inningless, changeless, the root of being, the standing promise, the certain goal. Is he a concept or a reality?
M: He is the only reality. All else is shadow, cast by the body- mind (deha-buddhi) on the face of time. Of course, even a shadow is related to reality, but by itself it is not real.
Q: I am the only reality I know. The sad guru is there as long as I think of him. What dug I gain by shifting reality to him?
M: Your loss is your gain. When the shadow is seen to be a shadow only, you stop following it. You Tom round and discover IN PEACE AND SILENCE YOU GROW 375 the sun which was there all the time--behind your back!
Q: Does the inner Guru also teach?
M: He grants the conviction that you are the eternal, change- less, reality-consciousness-love, within and beyond all appear- ances.
Q: A conviction is not enough. There must be certainty.
M: Quite right. But in this case certainty takes the shape of courage. Fear ceases absolutely. This state of fearlessness is so unmistakably new, yet felt deeply as one's own, that it cannot be denied. It is like loving one's own child. Who can doubt it?
Q: We hear of progress in our spiritual endeavors. What kind of progress do you have in mind?
M: When you go-beyond progress, you will know what is prog- ress.
Q: What makes us progress?
M: Silence is the main factor. In peace and silence you grow.
Q: The mind is so absolutely restless. For quieting it what is the way?
M: Trust the teacher. Take my own case. My Guru ordered me to attend to the sense 'I am' and to give attention to nothing else. I just obeyed. I did not follow any particular course of breathing, or meditation, or study of scriptures. Whatever happened, I would turn away my attention from it and remain with the sense PI am', it may look too simple, even crude. My only reason for doing it was that my Guru told me so. Yet it worked! Obedience is a powerful solvent of all desires and fears. Just turn away from all that occupies the mind; do whatever work you have to complete, but avoid new obligations; keep empty, keep available, resist not what comes uninvited. In the end you reach a state of non-grasping, of joyful non- attachment, of inner ease and freedom indescribable, yet won- derfully real.
Q: When a truth-seeker earnestly practices his Yogas, does his inner Guru guide and help him or does he weave him to his owr~ resources, just waiting for the outcome?
M: All happens try itself. Neither the seeker. nor the Guru do 376 1 AM THAT anything. Things happen as they happen; blame or praise are apportioned later, after the sense of doer ship appearing.
Q: How strange! Surely the doer comes before the deed.
M: It is the other way round; the deed is a fact, the doer a mere concept. Your very language shows that while the deed is cer- tain, the doer is dubious; shifting responsibility is a game pecul- iarly human. Considering the endless list of factors required for anything to happen, one can only admit that everything is re- sponsible for everything, however remote. Doer ship is a myth born from the illusion of 'me' and 'the mine'.
Q: How powerful the illusion?
M: No doubt, because based on reality.
Q: What is real in it?
M: Find out, by discerning and rejecting all that is unreal.
Q: I have not understood well the role of the inner self in spiritual endeavor. Who makes the effort? Is it the outer self, or the inner?
M: You have invented words like effort, inner, outer, self, etc. and seek to impose them on reality. Things just happen to be as they are, but we want to build them into a pattern, laid down by the structure of our language. So strong is this habit, that we tend to deny reality to what cannot be verbalized. We just refuse to see that words are mere symbols, related by convention and habit to repeated experiences.
Q: What is the value of spiritual books?
M: They help in dispelling ignorance. They are useful in the be- ginning, but become a hindrance in the end. One must know when to discard them.
Q: What is the link between at ma and sattva, between the self and the universal harmony?
M: As between the sun and its rays. Harmony and beauty, un- derstanding and affection are all expressions of reality. It is rea- lity in action, the impact of the spirit on matter. Tam as obscures, rajahs distorts, sattva harmonizes. With the maturing of the sattva all desires and fears come to an end. The real being is reflected in the mind undistorted. Matter is redeemed, spirit--revealed. IN PEACE AND SILENCE YOU GROW 37;' The two are seen as one. They were always one, but the imper- fect mind saw them as two. Perfection of the mind is the human task, for matter and spirit meet in the mind.
Q: I feel like a man before a door. I know the door is open but it is guarded by the dogs of desire and fear. What am I to do?
M: Obey the teacher and brave the dogs. Behave as if they were not there. Again, obedience is the golden rule. Freedom is won by obedience. To escape from prison one must unques- tioningly obey instructions sent by those who work for one's re- lease.
Q: The words of the Guru, when merely heard, have little power. One must have faith to obey them. What creates such faith?
M: When time comes, faith comes. Everything comes in time. The Guru is always ready to share, but there are no takers.
Q: Yes, Sri Ramana Maharshi used to say: Gurus there are many, but where are the disciples?
M: Well, in the course of time everything happens. All will come through, not a single soul (Java) shall be lost.
Q: I am very much afraid of taking intellectual understanding for realization. I may talk of truth without knowing it, and may know it without a single word said. . I understand these conversations are going to be published. What will be their effect on the reader?
M: In the attentive and thoughtful rearer Inky Will pen an a bring out flowers and fruits. Words based on truth, if fully tested, have their own power. รน--- To Know that You do not Know, is True Knowledge 76
Maharaj: There is the body. Inside the body appears to be an observer and outside--a world under observation. The ob- server and his observation as well as the world observed Al pear and disappear together. Beyond it all, there is void. This void is one for all.
Questioner: What you say appears simple, but not everyone would say it. It is you, and you alone, who talks of the three and the void beyond. I see the world only, which includes all.
M: Even the 'I am'?
Q: Even the 'I am'. The 'I am' is there because the world is there.
M: And the world is there because the 'I am' is there. Q. Yes, it goes both ways. I cannot separate the two, nor go beyond, I cannot say something is, unless I experience it, as I cannot say something is not, because I do not experience it. What is it that you experience that makes you speak with such assurance?
M: I know myself as I am--timeless, spaceless, causeless. You happen not to know, being engrossed as you are in other things.
Q: Why am I so engrossed?
M: Because you are interested.
Q: What makes me interested?
M: Fear of pain, desire for pleasure. Pleasant is the ending of pain and painful the end of pleasure. They just rotate in endless TO KNOW THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW. IS TRUE KN~WI Fr~lF ~7q succession. Investigate the vicious circle till you find yourself beyond it.
Q: Don't I need your grace to take me beyond?
M: The grace of your Inner Reality is timelessly with you. Your very asking for grace is a sign of it. Do not worry about my grace, but do what you are told. The doing is the proof of ear- nestness, not the expecting of grace.
Q: What am I to be earnest about?
M: Assiduously investigate everything that crosses your field of attention. With practice the field will broaden and investigation deepen, until they become spontaneous and limitless.
Q: Are you not making realization the result of practice? Prac- tice operates within the limitations of physical existence. How can it give birth to the unlimited?
M: Of course, there car. be no causal connection between practice and wisdom. But the obstacles to wisdom are deeply affected by practice.
Q: What are the obstacles?
M: Wrong ideas and desires leading to wrong actions, causing dissipation and weakness of mind and body. The discovery and abandonment of the false remove what prevents the real enter- ing the mind. .
Q: I can distinguish two states of mind: 'I am' and 'the world is; they arise and subside together. People say: 'I am, because the world is'. You seem to say: 'The world is, because 'I am'. Which is true? M Neither. The two are one and the same state, in space and time. Beyond, there is the timeless.
Q: What is the connection between time and the timeless?
M: The timeless knows the time, the time does not know the timeless. All consciousness is in time and to it the timeless ap- pears unconscious. Yet, it is what makes consciousness possi- ble. Light shines in darkness. In light darkness is not visible. Or, you can put itthe other way--in the endless ocean of light, clouds of Consciousness appear--dark and limited, percei- vable by contrast. These are mere attempts to express in words 474 1 AM THAT
Q: I do not think I am fit for Yoga.
M: What else are you fit for? All your going and coming, seeking pleasure, loving and hating--all this shows that you struggle against limitations, self-imposed or accepted. In your ignorance you make mistakes and cause pain to yourself and others, but the urge is there and shall not be denied. The same urge that seeks birth, happiness and death shall seek understanding and liberation. !t is like a spark of fire in a cargo of cotton. You may not know about it, but sooner or later the ship will burst in flames. Liberation is a natural process and in the long run, in- evitable. But it is within your power to bring it into the now.
Q: Then why are so few liberated people in the world?
M: In a forest only some of the trees are in full bloom at a given moment, yet every one will have its turn. Sooner or later your physical and mental resources will come to an end. What will you do then? Despair? All right, despair. You will get tired of despairing and begin to question. At that moment you will be fit for conscious Yoga.
Q: I find all this seeking and brooding most unnatural.
M: Yours is the naturalness of a born cripple. YGU may be un- aware but it does not make you normal. What it means to be natural or normal you do not know, nor do you know that you do not know. At present you are drifting and therefore in danger, for to a drifter any moment anything may happen. It would be better to wake up and see your situation. That you are--you know. What you are--you don't know. Find out what you are.
Q: Why is there so much suffering in the world?
M: Selfishness is the cause of suffering. There is no other cause.
Q: I understood that suffering is inherent in limitation.
M: Differences and distinctions are not the causes of sorrow. Unity in diversity is natural and good. It is only with separate- ness and self-seeking that real suffering appears in the world 92 Go Beyond the l-am-the-body Idea
Questioner: We are like animals, running about in vain pursuits and there seems to be no end to it. Is there a way out? Maharaja: Many ways will be offered to you which will but take you round and bring you back to your starting point. First realize that your problem exists in your waking state only, that however painful it is, you are able to forget it altogether when you go to sleep. When you are awake you are conscious; when you are asleep, you are only alive. Consciousness and life--both you may call God; but you are beyond both, beyond God, beyond being and not-being. What prevents you from knowing yourself as all and beyond all, is the mind based on memory. It has power over you as long as you trust it; don't struggle with it; just disregard it. Deprived of attention, it will slow down and reveal the mechanism of its working. Once you know its nature and purpose, you will not allow it to create imaginary problems.
Q: Surely, not all problems are imaginary. There are real prob- lems.
M: What problems can there be which the mind did not create? Life and death do not create problems; pains and pleasures come and go, experienced and forgotten. It is memory and an- ticipation that create problems of attainment or avoidance, col- ored by like and dislike. Truth and love are man's real nature and mind and heart are the means of its expression.
Q: How to bring the mind under control? And the heart, which does not know what it wants?
M: They cannot work in darkness. They need the light of pure 476 1 AM THAT awareness to function rightly. All effort at control will merely sub- ject them to the dictates of memory. Memory is a good servant, but a bad master. It effectively prevents discovery. There is no place for effort in reality. It is selfishness, due to a self- identification with the body, that is the main problem and the cause of all other problems. And selfishness cannot be re- moved by effort, only by clear insight into its causes and effects. Effort is a sign of conflict between incompatible desires. They should be seen as they are--then only they dissolve.
Q: And what remains?
M: That which cannot change, remains. The great peace, the deep silence, the hidden beauty of reality remain. While it can not be conveyed through words, it is waiting for you to experi- ence for yourself.
Q: Must not one be fit and eligible for realization? Our nature is animal to the core. Unless it is conquered, how can we hope for reality to dawn?
M: Leave the animal alone. Let it be. Just remember what you are. Use every incident of the day to remind you that without you as the witness there would be neither animal nor God. Under- stand that you are both, the essence and the substance of all there is. and remain firm in your understanding.
Q: Is understanding enough? Don't I need more tangible proofs?
M: It is your understanding that will decide about the validity of proofs. But what more tangible proof do you need than your own existence? Wherever you go you find yourself. However far you reach out in time, you are there.
Q: Obviously, I am not all-per.wading and eternal. I am only here and now.
M: Good enough. The 'here' is everywhere and the now--al- ways. Go beyond 'I-am-the-body' idea and you will find that space and time are in you and not you in space and time. Once you have understood this, the main oustCole to realization is re- moved.
(My humble salutations to Advaita Vedanta Library for the collection)
Note: This text may have spelling and grammatical mistakes.
(Continued .......)
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